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2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

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  • 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

    Not sure people actually post new stuff here anymore?

    I have this on TDIclub. I'll throw it here for fun too.


    Hi all,
    I know there are a ton of threads on this. I have read a ton of them. Perhaps all of them. Haha. I'd appreciate if some had some insight here. It's intermittent and have had no luck with a shop reproducing at this point.

    Car is a 2005 Passat TDI. Issue is a very long crank, only when warm (like an hour after shutting down a hot engine). Its a consistent crank. It does not seem slow and no sputtering or sound of just some of the cylinders firing. Just cranking like no fuel. Sometimes to the point that the "stop" warning pops up on dash, but will always eventually fire. Cold starts are flawless. I don't think it's ever hesitated more than a crank or two on a cold start. This has been going on for a long time, but I've been putting up with it as since Covid, I don't drive a heck of a lot. I've done a bunch of things over last year or two with no improvement. Throwing some parts at it since the issue is intermittent and hard to pinpoint.

    I have:
    -done injector purge/clean. Injector stabilization values seem fine.
    -checked timing and fine.
    -replaced crank sensor with new part.
    -replaced cam sensor with used part.
    -tandem pump was leaking so having to remove it anyway, I replaced it with new.
    -EGR - I have a few of these. All used, but no change when I swap them.
    -anti-shutter is not stuck. I have had start issue with intake pipe off and felt it was open. I have also tried second used ASV.
    -basic service stuff like fuel and air filters.
    -lift pump (was pretty sure this was not it but got a new aftermarket one at a good price).
    -replaced lift pump relay.
    -dont expect glow plug issues since this is a warm engine.
    -temp sensor looks good when I'm looking. Again, not sure this would cause a warm start issue anyways.
    -should effect start but charge hoses are all good. I pressure tested them.
    -should not effect start, but turbo was replaced during the course of this issue existing (because it died)
    -other fun facts - BSM is gear drive, has 5 speed swap, runs a Malone stage 1.5 (tune has been there since 90,000km... Long before this issue, so not a suspect).

    In general, once running, car pulls, idles, drives really well. There is no symptoms after the starting. Drives great for 320,000km, to be honest.

    There are no codes when scanned.

    So what's left here? I have not pulled the cam cover since my last timing belt change a long while back. The cam would have about 210,000km. I'm not hearing any popping or performance issue relaxing to worn cam, but maybe something there? How about injection? Is there anything there that could act up (in my mind, I'm thinking all 4 injectors would not act up together and I'd get a few cylinders firing, but could be off base there). I don't want to pop the cam cover without good reason the stupid covers don't like to re-seal.

    Also noticing that there is not heaps of smoke when it does fire. Like on a cold winter morning, I've had it crank and crank do to cold, and when it fires, there is a ton of smoke. I don't see that here. Like I just tested it and had a bad start in a closed garage and it was no big deal with smoke. Maybe fueling, but both pumps are new. Is there something else that could stop fuel flow? (But the drive totally fine with no power loss once started?)

    I see the starter as a common recommendation for a long crank. If someone can vouch for that, that is helpful. I really don't see that as is is turning over plenty fast in my mind. It does not sound like it's working hard to turn over.

    So if you made it this far, thanks for reading. I'd love to hear any ideas beyond what I've already tried.

    Thanks a bunch!
    Stefan
    -> '19 Deep Black Pearl Alltrack
    -> '05 Urban Grey Passat Wagon TDI.
    -> Past rides: '14 Allroad, 06 Mazda5, '98 Jetta K2, '01 Jetta TDI, '91 Mazda B2200, '81 Toyota Cressida
    -> FutuRe Ride...??!

  • #2
    Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

    Coolant temp sensor?
    Calgary Autoworks

    2004.5 Jetta GLI
    2005 Audi Allroad

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

      Originally posted by BaggedGLI View Post
      Coolant temp sensor?
      Not out of the question. It looks good on vag-com, but as the problem is intermittent, I could just not be hooked up when it screws up.

      But also, this only happens when the engine is still warm/hot. I'm not sure a bad coolant sensor would make a difference in that case? I doesnt need glow plugs or anything to come on at that point. I could be out to lunch there though. Is there something else that coolant sensor could trigger that I'm not thinking of?

      I did disconnected the injector harness for fun. I wanted to see what the car did with dead injector solenoids. Cranks forever, in the same way. It SOUNDs the same as my intermittent issue. No sputtering, no ingition, no smoke, just no fuel. In this case though, I do get a code with the harness disconnected. Suspiciously similar though.

      Now what was maybe a good thing though is when I reconnected that harness, I started getting several errors for glow plugs that I have never had. That harness has nothing to do with glowplugs, but my hands being back there changed something. I'm suspicious now I have a wiring issue. I may start by cleaning and re-seating some connections.
      Stefan
      -> '19 Deep Black Pearl Alltrack
      -> '05 Urban Grey Passat Wagon TDI.
      -> Past rides: '14 Allroad, 06 Mazda5, '98 Jetta K2, '01 Jetta TDI, '91 Mazda B2200, '81 Toyota Cressida
      -> FutuRe Ride...??!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

        Interesting, when was the last time you replaced your fuel filter? Recently I saw an issue with a faulty fuel filter return valve as well that was not flowing causing a no start issue.

        I would have questions about the aftermarket lift pump, I have seen issues with defective ones (like 3 in a row) on cheap ones.
        Calgary Autoworks

        2004.5 Jetta GLI
        2005 Audi Allroad

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

          Fuel filter is new. Replaced pretty recently. The thermostatic T on the filter is also new since this issue (may actually have been your suggestion some time last year, Colin. I seem to remember the Passat one was like twice the price of the MK4 one. lol).

          Lift pump, yup, that was a concern for me too. I tested the original OEM one for volume (like timed while pumping in to a bucket) and it passed, but as this is not an every-start issue, there was room for it to be an occasional issue. I sort of don't think it was ever the lift pump, but I wanted to swap something in just to see if I got a different result. I also put a gauge on the line from the original lift pump. It was not really the right gauge as it was meant for higher pressure, but it was enough I could see the needle tick up when turned the key. I left that sticking out of the hood for a week or so. So lift pump I think is actually unlikely, I just was running out of options. The one I got was from a shop in the UK. Seems slightly better reviewed than the EBAY ones from china, but could also be crap for sure. The relay running it is new OEM.

          I'm a little stumped now why messing with the injector harness that connects at the back of the block triggered consistent check engine lights for glow plugs. I cleaned with electrical cleaner and put it back and now, no more CEL. But regardless, its an injector harness. Glow plugs are separate. So maybe I pulled on the wiring loom and moved something, or maybe there is a more general grounding issue somewhere. I'm hoping I don't have to go pin by pin on the main wire harness from ECU with a multimeter :(


          I started googling for possible injector issues and the wire harness in the engine that connects the injectors seems to be a bit of a trouble maker, but common symptom is more likely misfiring. Not totally dead injectors. Still, it is something I'm considering. I know if I pull the cover and check, I'll probably be in for a new valve cover. My experience is they leak after removing, and the gasket/cover is sold as a single part on this thing. Maybe I can see some different resistances right at the pins on the connector if I check at the right temp.
          Stefan
          -> '19 Deep Black Pearl Alltrack
          -> '05 Urban Grey Passat Wagon TDI.
          -> Past rides: '14 Allroad, 06 Mazda5, '98 Jetta K2, '01 Jetta TDI, '91 Mazda B2200, '81 Toyota Cressida
          -> FutuRe Ride...??!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

            Definitely a strange one going on. Sounds like the pump is working correctly. We have replaced injector harnesses, but again, it was occasional issues, not outright dead.

            Gasket should be available separately. 038 103 483D - go with a Genuine one, the aftermarket ones don't stay in the cover when you are trying to put them on. Sounds like you are on the right path though. Have you opened the ECU box and checked for any sort of moisture/corrosion?
            Calgary Autoworks

            2004.5 Jetta GLI
            2005 Audi Allroad

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

              ECU was opened up when I did the transmission swap a few years back. Not since. I was thinking I would check it though and make sure it is all clean and well seated.

              Its been an intermittent issue for so long, I really can't put my finger on when it started, or what the last thing I touched before it started was. I'll pop out the ECU and have a look though. Good idea.
              Stefan
              -> '19 Deep Black Pearl Alltrack
              -> '05 Urban Grey Passat Wagon TDI.
              -> Past rides: '14 Allroad, 06 Mazda5, '98 Jetta K2, '01 Jetta TDI, '91 Mazda B2200, '81 Toyota Cressida
              -> FutuRe Ride...??!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

                Thanks for help today, Colin.

                I'm going to try to find out more about this crank RPM requirement. I have another comment from the TDI club guys:

                "The PD does have a fueling cutoff on hot start, but I think it is at a lower RPM then the ALH, around 200rpm as I recall."

                200rpm would be interesting as my VCDS logs are showing 189 to 210 (i just unhooked injector harness and let it crank).
                Stefan
                -> '19 Deep Black Pearl Alltrack
                -> '05 Urban Grey Passat Wagon TDI.
                -> Past rides: '14 Allroad, 06 Mazda5, '98 Jetta K2, '01 Jetta TDI, '91 Mazda B2200, '81 Toyota Cressida
                -> FutuRe Ride...??!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

                  more info:

                  I had a look at the hot start maps in a manual trans file for a BPW and an AWX and they do cut fuel until 250rpm above 70ºC. I'd look up the BHW specifically but the hard disk on my usual "tuning" computer crapped the bed a couple weeks ago so I have no files to view at present. They do inject fuel at 200rpm when coolant temp is 20ºC or below. The map is pretty coarse, but suffice to say you need at least 200rpm to fire when engine temp is above 20ºC and 250rpm above 70ºC.

                  The cold start maps inject fuel at pretty much zero speed, so cold starting will never be an issue.
                  Stefan
                  -> '19 Deep Black Pearl Alltrack
                  -> '05 Urban Grey Passat Wagon TDI.
                  -> Past rides: '14 Allroad, 06 Mazda5, '98 Jetta K2, '01 Jetta TDI, '91 Mazda B2200, '81 Toyota Cressida
                  -> FutuRe Ride...??!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

                    The only thing I can add is checking the timing….having a few hard starts myself and was doing some reading.
                    Hers 2009 Audi A4 6sp manual
                    Mine....2005 Golf TDI, VNT 17, Malone tuned stage 4, Spec stage 2 clutch, FMIC, Ventectomy, NewSouth gauges, BuzzKen 2.5 turbo back exhaust, Evolution Skidplate, Helix OEM Reps retrofitted with Morimoto Bixenon mini's, ST coils, colour matched Huffs. Frostheater

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

                      Timing I have actually checked. And then I grabbed a cam sensor at Pick n pull, and re-checked after that. I think I'm ok in that department.

                      I have an EGR sitting here, if your that ends up having anything to do with your issue! I think its the same one.
                      Stefan
                      -> '19 Deep Black Pearl Alltrack
                      -> '05 Urban Grey Passat Wagon TDI.
                      -> Past rides: '14 Allroad, 06 Mazda5, '98 Jetta K2, '01 Jetta TDI, '91 Mazda B2200, '81 Toyota Cressida
                      -> FutuRe Ride...??!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

                        EGR is deleted in mine, few more things to check as well.
                        Hers 2009 Audi A4 6sp manual
                        Mine....2005 Golf TDI, VNT 17, Malone tuned stage 4, Spec stage 2 clutch, FMIC, Ventectomy, NewSouth gauges, BuzzKen 2.5 turbo back exhaust, Evolution Skidplate, Helix OEM Reps retrofitted with Morimoto Bixenon mini's, ST coils, colour matched Huffs. Frostheater

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

                          Got the started replaced and RPM on crank is looking better. So far, so good. Hopefully that was it.

                          Going to be time to find a new ride soon, I think!
                          Stefan
                          -> '19 Deep Black Pearl Alltrack
                          -> '05 Urban Grey Passat Wagon TDI.
                          -> Past rides: '14 Allroad, 06 Mazda5, '98 Jetta K2, '01 Jetta TDI, '91 Mazda B2200, '81 Toyota Cressida
                          -> FutuRe Ride...??!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

                            How old is your Malone file? I thought the cranking issue/hot start fix was automatically included in their files?
                            Calgary Autoworks

                            2004.5 Jetta GLI
                            2005 Audi Allroad

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: 2005 Passat TDI crank issue (again)

                              Hmm - was not aware there was a firmware side fix there?? Mine is old. I mean, I had it refreshed for the Manual transmission recently but not sure they would have redone the whole tune or just updated what needed to change there.
                              Stefan
                              -> '19 Deep Black Pearl Alltrack
                              -> '05 Urban Grey Passat Wagon TDI.
                              -> Past rides: '14 Allroad, 06 Mazda5, '98 Jetta K2, '01 Jetta TDI, '91 Mazda B2200, '81 Toyota Cressida
                              -> FutuRe Ride...??!

                              Comment

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