Tasers...

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

"Dziekanski died Oct. 14 after being shocked twice by an RCMP Taser but an autopsy did not reveal an obvious cause of death."

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/national/071207/n120796A.html

So ya apparently he just died. No real cause. What a coincidence ...

So if he'd eaten a whopper 2 hours earlier you'd say "Well looks like Burger King played a role". Guess what - electical shock is an OBVIOUS cause of death, which is apparently not the case here. Maybe his shoes were too small, or perhaps the stapler has lead in the paint. You want to grasp at staws because it's convenient for your case then I can play too.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

2nd hand from good friends who did a road trip to Florida and back during spring break. 4 teenager in a beater VW. I only seem to get pulled over in BC. And have roadblocks setup. :(

BTW - I've always agreed that obviously the airport/customs screwed up, my whole argument has been against people solely blaming the cops for using a "lethal" weapon. They of course get some blame but it will be a procedural thing, not gross negligence or murder. Assuming of course it doesn't end up being a nightstick or crushed chest that killed him.

"Dziekanski died Oct. 14 after being shocked twice by an RCMP Taser but an autopsy did not reveal an obvious cause of death."

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/national/071207/n120796A.html

So ya apparently he just died. No real cause. What a coincidence ...

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

I have heard on the news the airport authority is spending big buck on some translation screens. Doing their best because of media/political pressure.

I think they could have spent $10 on a hunk of cardboard and a felt pen and wrote a sign that says "You are in Canada. Behave as you please. We dont stick up for ourselves".

LOL. Any other sign ideas?

UMM I don't think political/media pressure was a leading cause in this.

The changes include

"The changes include:

Hiring new public safety officers skilled in negotiations and non-physical intervention

24-hour staffing of the customer care kiosks in the international arrivals area and inside the customs hall

Terminal-wide access to translation services

Emergency medical responders stationed in the airport 24 hours a day

Improved multilingual signage with pictograms and translations in as many as 20 languages

Hourly walk-through of the customs hall by airport staff and 24-hour public safety patrols

Improved communication from inside the secure area of the customs hall to the public arrivals lounge for both staff and the public

A new arrivals video that will be shown on all incoming international flights
Improved customer care training for all airport staff"

Something needed to be done and it looks like some very good changes to me. Especially for a city like vancouver that is hosting the olympics it is pretty embarrassing these measures are not already in place and it took this for them to have come.

"I think that we've lost a little bit of the human touch, the ability to reach out to people, individuals who may have different, unique circumstances, such as this individual did," said Berg.

The airport authority had no staff in the customs area to interact with Dziekanski, who wandered around for hours before becoming so agitated that he started tossing furniture."

Pretty much sums that up.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/national/071207/n120796A.html

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Are these expectations based on first hand experience?

2nd hand from good friends who did a road trip to Florida and back during spring break. 4 teenager in a beater VW. I only seem to get pulled over in BC. And have roadblocks setup. :(

BTW - I've always agreed that obviously the airport/customs screwed up, my whole argument has been against people solely blaming the cops for using a "lethal" weapon. They of course get some blame but it will be a procedural thing, not gross negligence or murder. Assuming of course it doesn't end up being a nightstick or crushed chest that killed him.

[GoNzO]

Re: Tasers...

I have heard on the news the airport authority is spending big buck on some translation screens. Doing their best because of media/political pressure.

I think they could have spent $10 on a hunk of cardboard and a felt pen and wrote a sign that says "You are in Canada. Behave as you please. We dont stick up for ourselves".

LOL. Any other sign ideas?

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

You do NOT pay cops to act as attorneys, mediators or social workers. Most are under 24, and previously in the military. You do NOT stand and debate the law with a cop who has given you a command. It is NOT negotiable. Make a complaint later. Or expect a nightstick/taser/gun/fist.

Do you really think these cops are unaware, or just forgot the cameras recording their voices and actions? They know what they're doing. The last video posted, the guy in the car was intentionally being an idiot, not giving his licence, then deciding to become a problem. The cop did not shoot him again after he was on the ground as instructed, even though he kept beaking off. But if he'd tried to get up the cop would be perfectly fine for zapping him again. Also note the lack of lasting effects on the suspect. That's what happens 99.999% of the time.

My only concern I think was brought up before and that's where the suspect seemed awfully close to the traffic when falling over. But could be the camera angle too - it's a fisheyeish lens.

If you ever get pulled over in some of the southern states, expect to be told to get out of the car with your hands up, and walk back towards the police car, while the officer has his gun pointed directly at you, shielded behind his door. Lunge for your crispy crunch in your pocket you'll get shot and it's your own fault. Common sense people.

Are these expectations based on first hand experience?

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

My 2 cents....

I like tasers. Never been shot by one but have had many patients brought in by law enforment who have. I have also been present in the ER when they are used to restrain a patient who is out of control. Good way of ending things fast. I have NEVER seen a poor result of using them first hand. I think one thing needs to be remembered. People need to start taking responsibility for what they do. I dont know how many times a patient wants to take on the world and threatens harm...but once they are tased they cant figure out why they got tased. Now really there is only one other way to control people who want to fight.....gang tackle. Now I have seen first hand what this does. Broken arms, legs, internal injuries, facial injuries, etc. Or maybe a stick should be used and they should hit you with that!. Now I have watched the video in Vancouver. I think it was warrented. You come to a foreign country and act like an idiot all aggressive and we are to pat you on the back and say its okay. Now I dont like that he died. Feel bad for the family. I dont care if you are frustrated and have stood around for your luggage which never comes. BE PREPARED!. Come in hand with a translation book, etc. I dont travel to Russia or any other country without a translation book and basic language skills. He is at fault. Act like a moron be treated like a moron. He was a risk. To himself and others. Now if there is a threatening person where I am I want law enforcement to do the job tey have to to end it QUICK, so others and myself are not in danger.
Lets note tasers have been used tens of thousands of times with good results. Law enforcement should have to ask you if you have health problems before they use it. THey dont ask you if a bullet will kill before they shoot you!. Over all it has good results that end things safe. Now using fists, batons, rubber bullets, gang tackles, all COULD result in injury or death. All it takes is one lucky punch and your dead. Or a head hitting the floor(etc) and your dead.
Now I am not for unreasonable use of force. I am not for people who think that if they have a gun or large flash light that makes them macho. I dont care for the excuses that mentally ill deserve different treatment. If you are a threat you are a threat, NO matter what your mental condition is. In fact if you are mentally unstable you are a larger risk. So end it quick.
I personally think that a little pain is a good thing. Teach you for next time that if you get out of control the result is lots of pain. Its a deterant. In psych they call it "conditioning". LOL.
I feel if I act like a fool, being aggressive in ANY other country in this world that I would be dealt with ASAP. I think it would be aggressive and I would be lucky if I wasnt shot.
WHEN ARE PEOPLE GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY AND DO?

I also like the part where you say you don't travel to foreign countries w/o a translation book. Smart.

HOWEVER, this happened where again? VANCOUVER, a city known for diversity and they happen to be hosting a little thing called the Olympics. I certainly would like to think a city like this knows how to deal with things a little more competently and not in the American fashion, apparently the airport authority felt the same way.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

I agree with you Khyron. Cops are in a dangerous place. Put yourself in their shoes. Going into a tense situation anything can happen. Look at how many RCMP are killed each year. Everytime that happens the news asks "why" or "what can be done to help them". Stupid questions when you are faced with people. People are unpredictable. I see it in the ER. The ones who look mean might be nice. You never know. I have spent sometime in the USA. When a CHP tells you to jump you do it or get whats coming. Are they wrong for it? They must protect themselves. They have family. A wife and kids maybe. Most of all they have their life. They usually took the job to help. Helping others and risking your life isnt an option. We are taught protect yourself before helping others at work. I will not risk my life to help a stupid person. Why should a cop? If you listen you are not going to get a beat down.
Once again ....YOU MUST BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR ACTIONS. Going to be a punk...get treated like one. Obviously if your parents didnt raise you with respect then someone eventually is going to teach it to you.

For some reason though the Vancouver airport authority feels that this was handled wrong. I think they are now spending 1.3 million to improve things and hire " five public safety officers trained in conflict resolution to intervene in a situation such as Dziekanski's" .

So the response is now to try and resolve the situation with humanity, frankly, you shouldn't be a police officer if you have to have someone come in and intervene and perform some conflict resolution.

I don't think anyone is arguing police have a right to protect themselves however it is very disappointing to see such figures acting so poorly in such situations and acting unwarranted. The traffic video is hard to comment on though as Canadian ideals are much different then Americans.

[GoNzO]

Re: Tasers...

I agree with you Khyron. Cops are in a dangerous place. Put yourself in their shoes. Going into a tense situation anything can happen. Look at how many RCMP are killed each year. Everytime that happens the news asks "why" or "what can be done to help them". Stupid questions when you are faced with people. People are unpredictable. I see it in the ER. The ones who look mean might be nice. You never know. I have spent sometime in the USA. When a CHP tells you to jump you do it or get whats coming. Are they wrong for it? They must protect themselves. They have family. A wife and kids maybe. Most of all they have their life. They usually took the job to help. Helping others and risking your life isnt an option. We are taught protect yourself before helping others at work. I will not risk my life to help a stupid person. Why should a cop? If you listen you are not going to get a beat down.
Once again ....YOU MUST BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR ACTIONS. Going to be a punk...get treated like one. Obviously if your parents didnt raise you with respect then someone eventually is going to teach it to you.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

You do NOT pay cops to act as attorneys, mediators or social workers. Most are under 24, and previously in the military. You do NOT stand and debate the law with a cop who has given you a command. It is NOT negotiable. Make a complaint later. Or expect a nightstick/taser/gun/fist.

Do you really think these cops are unaware, or just forgot the cameras recording their voices and actions? They know what they're doing. The last video posted, the guy in the car was intentionally being an idiot, not giving his licence, then deciding to become a problem. The cop did not shoot him again after he was on the ground as instructed, even though he kept beaking off. But if he'd tried to get up the cop would be perfectly fine for zapping him again. Also note the lack of lasting effects on the suspect. That's what happens 99.999% of the time.

My only concern I think was brought up before and that's where the suspect seemed awfully close to the traffic when falling over. But could be the camera angle too - it's a fisheyeish lens.

If you ever get pulled over in some of the southern states, expect to be told to get out of the car with your hands up, and walk back towards the police car, while the officer has his gun pointed directly at you, shielded behind his door. Lunge for your crispy crunch in your pocket you'll get shot and it's your own fault. Common sense people.

[Stonewall]

Re: Tasers...

Sure police don't need to answer to you

Umm yes they do in a way. They are to serve and protect. We pay their salaries for them to protect us not to be taser happy security guards.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

My 2 cents....

I like tasers. Never been shot by one but have had many patients brought in by law enforment who have. I have also been present in the ER when they are used to restrain a patient who is out of control. Good way of ending things fast. I have NEVER seen a poor result of using them first hand. I think one thing needs to be remembered. People need to start taking responsibility for what they do. I dont know how many times a patient wants to take on the world and threatens harm...but once they are tased they cant figure out why they got tased. Now really there is only one other way to control people who want to fight.....gang tackle. Now I have seen first hand what this does. Broken arms, legs, internal injuries, facial injuries, etc. Or maybe a stick should be used and they should hit you with that!. Now I have watched the video in Vancouver. I think it was warrented. You come to a foreign country and act like an idiot all aggressive and we are to pat you on the back and say its okay. Now I dont like that he died. Feel bad for the family. I dont care if you are frustrated and have stood around for your luggage which never comes. BE PREPARED!. Come in hand with a translation book, etc. I dont travel to Russia or any other country without a translation book and basic language skills. He is at fault. Act like a moron be treated like a moron. He was a risk. To himself and others. Now if there is a threatening person where I am I want law enforcement to do the job tey have to to end it QUICK, so others and myself are not in danger.
Lets note tasers have been used tens of thousands of times with good results. Law enforcement should have to ask you if you have health problems before they use it. THey dont ask you if a bullet will kill before they shoot you!. Over all it has good results that end things safe. Now using fists, batons, rubber bullets, gang tackles, all COULD result in injury or death. All it takes is one lucky punch and your dead. Or a head hitting the floor(etc) and your dead.
Now I am not for unreasonable use of force. I am not for people who think that if they have a gun or large flash light that makes them macho. I dont care for the excuses that mentally ill deserve different treatment. If you are a threat you are a threat, NO matter what your mental condition is. In fact if you are mentally unstable you are a larger risk. So end it quick.
I personally think that a little pain is a good thing. Teach you for next time that if you get out of control the result is lots of pain. Its a deterant. In psych they call it "conditioning". LOL.
I feel if I act like a fool, being aggressive in ANY other country in this world that I would be dealt with ASAP. I think it would be aggressive and I would be lucky if I wasnt shot.
WHEN ARE PEOPLE GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY AND DO?

Yup in Canada were all about knee jerk reactions, get er done eh. Just like them Americans. eh

Give me a break. You should be able to fly into a international airport and be able to be taken care of this is Canada and last I checked we try to diffuse and peace keep.

If the police are not capable of diffusing a situation in 20 seconds maybe they should spend more then 20 seconds.

If someone is looking for someone and asks for help from airport staff maybe they should help instead of assuring you that person is not there and sending you on your way home that is 2 hours away. Every core fundamental value that Canada stands for is shattered to pieces in what unfolded in Vancouver.

I also find it to be interesting that you work in a medical field and don't believe that the officers should take into account the situation. They do know they are in an airport and people may be a little off given the stress etc. and if they are unable to take this into account with their dealings they should not be working with the public. The police could have diffused the situation and things could have ended much better. I find it funny the public approached him and tried to diffuse it and security was in the process of diffusing it and in came the police and didn't even try. Maybe in some other country but not here.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

Looked like misuse of authority to me. He just cant wait to pull it out. What's sad is he was more then likely treated this way for driving while being black.

The cop was just a tool and is clearly unstable and should not be in a position of authority, just like the Polish man, it looks like the police officer was having a bad day. Just like any other profession, losers exist within every profession unfortunately this profession comes with a significant amount of authority. No different then teachers, you have excellent teachers and then you have loser teachers.

Just like anything else, sure you can use your taser however like the other video all that he had to do was treat the man like a human being. Sure police don't need to answer to you but if the officers behavior was better this could have gone a completely different way. The officer has just as much control as the person he is talking to, to decide which way things go, maybe these officers need to take a class in how to diffuse a situation as instead of adding to it. Its no wonder he is just some pee-on traffic cop.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Looked like he deserved it to me.

[Coker Rat]

Re: Tasers...

WOW! you guys see this one? This one takes the cake if you ask me, imagine if this guy died...


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