Tasers...

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

You have had people who are involved in law enforcement tell you this was handled completely wrong and they are the experienced ones.

I've talked to more real cops that have said there are lots of minor things that of course in hindsight could have been dealt with better but it's not like they were completely off base in their tactic.

When I heard about the video I was in Van with no computer. People were raging - it's on every paper, interview. Without seeing the video I honestly thought that the dude was sitting in a chair passively and the cops walked up to him and just shot him - and he keeled over and died. Then I see the real video with the chairs being tossed, the crazed look on his face, the resistance to the cops both before getting tasered and after - and then the time lag between getting tasered and actually dying... I mean it's absurd how this is being reacted to. Yes of course the cops must have at least a piece of the blame because the guy did die. But calls for banning tasers, it's muder, hang the cops, etc, it makes me sicker than the video.

Ps, i'm pretty sure me and pablo could handle you with a stapler too. do we get all the other tools these police officers had?

Sure, but that's not the point - the question becomes would you feel safer taking me with the stapler, or without. Do you understand that a chain, or a metal spike or a box cutter might not seem dangerous like a sword or a knife but it IS. An irony of knife fighting is that the smaller the blade, the more dangerous it is to deal with. I'd rather deal with a guy with a baseball bat than a screwdriver.

And even ignoring all that - the fact that your opponent is holding ANYTHING like a weapon shows intent to fight. Ok maybe not a rubber chicken, but you get the idea.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Maybe you need to watch the video again.

Here i'll even give you the link and time ~7:00 watch the right cop jab that sucker into him. I wouldn't be surprised if he was beat to death.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qHKk5qQRzL4

So ya what was that big pole he whipped out?

So to you getting jabbed with a bat is the same as getting hit with a swing? Watch the Rodney King beating and compare.

That said I agree it doesn't look right, but I also can't see what he's jabbing. If he was actually hitting him in the shoulder or something he should have been supporting the base, almost like a pole vault. The way he's holding it he's got virtually no aim - you can see it swaying around, he's almost hitting random spots.

But I stand by what I've said since the beginning - I don't believe the taser caused his death and I don't believe the cops "murdered" him. If that idiot with the stick really was trying to jab his shoulder and hit him at the base of the neck or head then yah they're responsible but it's not murder. Just look at him resisting - he moved the whole dogpile. When they were all close together, the taser was down it's when atfer 3:39 he suddenly turns away that it comes up.

If the world was as simple as you try to make it, and it was electrocution or death by blunt force trauma (stick) you'd think the autopsy would be out by now?

You can re-watch it over and over, but those guys were making decisions in split seconds, not armchair quarterbacking a month later.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

She looks like she's approaching a tiger, and he doesn't look very calm to me. Reports say he lashed out at bystanders trying to help.

Give me a metal stapler, and you and 3 friends come try and take me down with no weapons at all. Concussions, crushed skull, death all become a distinct possibility. Not a certainty of course, but the risk goes way up.

People act like the guy was actually going to staple people - if that was the case, then yah that's funny. But a 2 pound metal weight in a fist is not a joke even if the object itself is. A roll of quarters or a set of house keys can be lethal when held properly.=

AHAHA that's great so your telling me 4 officers are not able to subdue someone holding a stapler. That's great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTuQBlsrKqY

@3:39 his hands appear empty and the police are within striking distance pretty crazy considering they felt so threatened so why didn't they grab him then and place him under arrest???? I would love to have seen how this would have played out if no one had a taser. You think they would have shot him.

You have had people who are involved in law enforcement tell you this was handled completely wrong and they are the experienced ones.

Ps, i'm pretty sure me and pablo could handle you with a stapler too. do we get all the other tools these police officers had?

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

Now you make crap up. Even the most anti-cop news reports have acknowledged that no strikes were inflicted. They did not club him or punch him (because they used the taser instead). He was resisting, and as you keep ignoring, when your out of your mind you can have amazing strength, even against 4 guys who are trying to restrain you without hurting you.

If the cops do get in trouble it will be for not performing CPR. I don't understand that part.

Maybe you need to watch the video again.

Here i'll even give you the link and time ~7:00 watch the right cop jab that sucker into him. I wouldn't be surprised if he was beat to death.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qHKk5qQRzL4

So ya what was that big pole he whipped out?

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Ya thats it. So dangerous that if you watch the whole video a women approaches him before the police respond, while he is holding a table and she doesn't appear to be to threatened. Yet 4 officers were threatened by this armed man with a stapler. Pathetic. The officers went way to far. This not in a back alley with a single officer and if they felt so threatened maybe they should have called for backup.

She looks like she's approaching a tiger, and he doesn't look very calm to me. Reports say he lashed out at bystanders trying to help.

Give me a metal stapler, and you and 3 friends come try and take me down with no weapons at all. Concussions, crushed skull, death all become a distinct possibility. Not a certainty of course, but the risk goes way up.

People act like the guy was actually going to staple people - if that was the case, then yah that's funny. But a 2 pound metal weight in a fist is not a joke even if the object itself is. A roll of quarters or a set of house keys can be lethal when held properly.

Was he still holding that stapler when they were all on him smacking him with the baton?

Now you make crap up. Even the most anti-cop news reports have acknowledged that no strikes were inflicted. They did not club him or punch him (because they used the taser instead). He was resisting, and as you keep ignoring, when your out of your mind you can have amazing strength, even against 4 guys who are trying to restrain you without hurting you.

If the cops do get in trouble it will be for not performing CPR. I don't understand that part.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Cardiac arrest caused by electrical current is immediate. The video of the incident at the Vancouver airport indicates that the subject was continuing to fight well after the TASER application. This continuing struggle could not be possible if the subject died as a result of the TASER device electrical current causing cardiac arrest. His continuing struggle is proof that the TASER device was not the cause of his death. Further, the video clearly shows symptoms of excited delirium, a potentially fatal condition marked by symptoms of exhaustion and mania such as heavy breathing, profuse sweating, confusion, disorientation and violence toward inanimate objects.

We are taken aback by the number of media outlets that have irresponsibly published conclusive headlines blaming the TASER device and/or the law enforcement officers involved as the cause of death before completion of the investigation. These sensationalistic media reports completely ignore the earmark symptoms of excited delirium shown in the video. TASER International is transmitting over 60 legal demand letters requiring correction of these false and misleading headlines and will take other actions as appropriate. These unsubstantiated, false headlines mislead the public and could adversely influence public policy in ways which could place the lives of both law enforcement and the public at greater risk.

But yah sure, they should have chatted with him first.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

I have really waited a while before I though I would join in on this thread. Geoff I agree with most of your points and also agree with points from the other side but it simply comes down to one thing, the police where not patient enough. So what if the guy was thrashing the place, those are just items. Did he actually hit anyone? Don't ask me I wasn't there. From everything I have read it looks like the officers just showed up and went straight to forceful negotiation. Taser or not they still went about everything the wrong way. It maybe just that our society has bread them to be afraid of everything. Then again did they look at their surroundings, the man could not have been armed with a gun as there is no way we would have been able to get it into a secure area. So the man had no way of causing lethal harm at a distance, so that causes the question of why they acted the way they did. There could have been a more diplomatic way of dealing with the situation, instead they choice the typical hollywood Rambo style and used bruit force rather then their brains.

That's right. My reason for posting the entire story was to highlight the fact that not one other person helped this guy. The police could have gone in there in a calm matter and jestured they want to help and to try an understand whats going on but no they went marching in and got to it. I would like to know that if for some reason something went wrong with me mentally the police wouldn't treat me the way they did him. Especially if I am in an airport.

[Stonewall]

Re: Tasers...

I have really waited a while before I though I would join in on this thread. Geoff I agree with most of your points and also agree with points from the other side but it simply comes down to one thing, the police where not patient enough. So what if the guy was thrashing the place, those are just items. Did he actually hit anyone? Don't ask me I wasn't there. From everything I have read it looks like the officers just showed up and went straight to forceful negotiation. Taser or not they still went about everything the wrong way. It maybe just that our society has bread them to be afraid of everything. Then again did they look at their surroundings, the man could not have been armed with a gun as there is no way we would have been able to get it into a secure area. So the man had no way of causing lethal harm at a distance, so that causes the question of why they acted the way they did. There could have been a more diplomatic way of dealing with the situation, instead they choice the typical hollywood Rambo style and used bruit force rather then their brains.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

Coming from a law-enforcement background, I can see the benefits to having tasers. However, after reviewing the footage from the Vancouver Airport incident, I can honestly say that those officers were not justified in using the taser.
In the law enforcement field, we use a "use of continuum". This continuum is a guide to help determine which form of action we use under certain cicumstances. In this particular circumstance, the officers were not justified in using the taser. The individual was un-armed at the time the RCMP arrived and appeared to be co-operative. If you watch the video, he raises his hands to chest level as a sign of co-operation (non-verbal indicator) and he clearly listened to the officers demand to stand where he pointed. To make matters worse, there were four officers vs one individual. Following the verbal commands, the officers were to move on to the next step on the continuum, which is soft empty hand control. If the individual resists, you can take the next step and use hard empty hand techniques. If this step also fails, you are justified in using a baton, pepper spray or taser. After reviewing the footage, it is clear that the officers failed to use soft empty hand control and were quick to use the taser.
After watching the footage numerous times with fellow co-workers, we all felt that the officers were completely out of line.

Maybe you want to re-read this I think DubyT has some of that insider perspective you speak of.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

And yours show why criminals often enjoy more rights than victims.

Your entire description of his mother, his sad plight, his wait for 10 hours means NOTHING in this situation with regards to the police. The airport and border authority shoulder the blame on that one. You found out about it after the fact and are now incapable of viewing it impartially. It's a video of a crazy guy in an airport throwing crap and acting aggressive. Even assuming they didn't shoot him, and did bring up a Polish translator, do you think they'd have just let him go after trashing the place? He was engaged in criminal behavior, sick or not! 10 hours, no english, no water - how the hell does that relate to the cops?

If a guy attacks another and starts beating the crap out of another, and the cops drag him off - only you find out later that the guy he was beating up was a child molester - it doesn't change the act itself! You might have compassion now knowing the circumstances but the behaviour remains the same. It's assault.

If I was in a foreign country and didn't speak the language I'd either have several key phrases on flash cards, or at least the presence of mind not to start hurling furnature at glass windows in order to get attention. If I did do this, I would expect to be taken down.

People like you need to be caught in a dark alley with very bad people in order to appreciate what the police actually do deal with. Or better yet, go apply and show us how it's really done. At least go on a ride along - you might get some perspective.

I'm fine with the Taser policies and procedures being reviewed and possibly changed - but calling for the ban of the "lethal" weapon doesn't solve anything and I'm really sick of hearing it. It's an oversimplification of the problem.

EDIT: And you're still jumping the gun by declaring YOU know the cause of death, yet the B.C.'s Coroner Service is still unable to confirm a cause of death.

Ya thats it. So dangerous that if you watch the whole video a women approaches him before the police respond, while he is holding a table and she doesn't appear to be to threatened. Yet 4 officers were threatened by this armed man with a stapler. Pathetic. The officers went way to far. This not in a back alley with a single officer and if they felt so threatened maybe they should have called for backup. Was he still holding that stapler when they were all on him smacking him with the baton?

This is simply not justifiable. This well be shown in the trial when these officers well have to explain the reasoning and I have a feeling an example is about to made out of them.

Am I really jumping to conclusions? I mean he's alive, police show up, he's dead.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Your statement above truly shows how ignorant some individuals truly are.

And yours show why criminals often enjoy more rights than victims.

Your entire description of his mother, his sad plight, his wait for 10 hours means NOTHING in this situation with regards to the police. The airport and border authority shoulder the blame on that one. You found out about it after the fact and are now incapable of viewing it impartially. It's a video of a crazy guy in an airport throwing crap and acting aggressive. Even assuming they didn't shoot him, and did bring up a Polish translator, do you think they'd have just let him go after trashing the place? He was engaged in criminal behavior, sick or not! 10 hours, no english, no water - how the hell does that relate to the cops?

If a guy attacks another and starts beating the crap out of another, and the cops drag him off - only you find out later that the guy he was beating up was a child molester - it doesn't change the act itself! You might have compassion now knowing the circumstances but the behaviour remains the same. It's assault.

If I was in a foreign country and didn't speak the language I'd either have several key phrases on flash cards, or at least the presence of mind not to start hurling furnature at glass windows in order to get attention. If I did do this, I would expect to be taken down.

People like you need to be caught in a dark alley with very bad people in order to appreciate what the police actually do deal with. Or better yet, go apply and show us how it's really done. At least go on a ride along - you might get some perspective.

I'm fine with the Taser policies and procedures being reviewed and possibly changed - but calling for the ban of the "lethal" weapon doesn't solve anything and I'm really sick of hearing it. It's an oversimplification of the problem.

EDIT: And you're still jumping the gun by declaring YOU know the cause of death, yet the B.C.'s Coroner Service is still unable to confirm a cause of death.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

Yah, a hungry thirsty guy brandishing a table, smashing computers and thowing crap into glass windows threateing everyone else in the room - in an international airport.

You have compassion because you know he died. If you were standing in that room, waiting to get out you would have probably been saying "Holy crap just take this guy away in a straight jacket". Exactly the same reason why the camera guy wasn't saying "Oh my god look at the vicious cops" - at the time it looked like the right call.

And still the taser gets blamed when it was more likely the dogpile afterwards because he was STILL resisting like the hulk.

But that's ok - the next time a mentaly unstable guy starts swinging a pipe or other weapon around in a public place, the anti-taser people will sleep easy knowing he's not being tortured as the bullets shred him to pieces.

Should also be a class action lawsuit by all police officers, since they were obviously forced to be tortured by the government in order to get their taser certification.

WOW. Maybe your not from Canada, but this is not how we deal with things in Canada. Police here are not trained to be a bunch of trigger happy fools. They were in a secluded area and could have maced him, why use the second last resort and then beat him?

Your statement above truly shows how ignorant some individuals truly are.

As a Canadian citizen I believe this man was completely failed by what Canadians consider to be the foundation of Canada. I am ashamed to be a Canadian citzen given the circumstances of this situation.

This man was in the process of immigrating from Poland to Canada. He would be joining his mother who immigrated here 8 years ago and became a citizen. His flight was originally booked to go through Vancouver and then to Kamloops, where his mother resides. However, his mother changed his flight so she could drive him back to Kamloops from Vancouver so he could see first hand what Canada is like/about.

On the day of, she arrives at the airport to realize she made a mistake, unlike a domestic flight you cannot access the baggage carousel as it is on the secure Canadian border located in the airport when you fly international. She however told her son she would meet him at the baggage carousel, which she didn't have access to. Like any other logical person would once they realize the error they would ask someone at the airport if they could go find him or help her contact him.

This is where the first problem occurs. Airport employees refused to go look for him and only agreed to page him over the intercom. However, the employee should have known better as the page system does not function in the border crossing where her son was as he was just coming off an international flight and had passed through kiosk "a” into the border to go get his luggage where he expected to find his mother and therefore all pages went unheard by her son. After waiting for some time she was told to leave the airport nothing more could be done! (How is it in this day of age know one is able to check and see if he entered the border) Someone should have done something more. She then went all the way home because she felt as if though she could do no more because the "friendly, caring, helpful" Canadian staff were just the opposite.

In the mean time, her son is now stuck between kiosk "a" and "b"(the exit). In a period of 10 hours not one Canadian employee did anything to help this man before it escalated to the point it did. Why is it no one sent out a message to customs letting them know they were looking for a Polish man who speaks no english?

Imagine being in a country and not one person speaks your language and your mother who said she would be waiting for you is not there and no one has offered any sort of help to you, how would you feel? Oh and to top it all off you have just come off a flight from Germany and it's not unreasonable to think he hasn't eaten or drank anything for some time. The area he was stuck in is not that big as it is the border crossing and it is so hard to believe that not one employee of the airport or the government noticed this man who was there longer then a persons 8 hour shift.

It is NOT usual for someone to be in this area this long.

Fast forward to when the video starts and so much more can be said.

You see security and what are they asking for? A TRANSLATOR. The Vancouver international claims it has a translator of every language spoken in this world on stand by via telephone. I am sure that it is not the first time someone has come through this airport and has needed one. Security did the right thing and is taped requesting a translator. How come security thought to call to get someone who speaks Polish but the police didn't. Very embarrassing. Beyond that there are gestures one can make to help show they are there to help. I did’nt see anything like that as the police went barging in.

So this man has been failed on so many levels and what do we see next. The RCMP storming in like soldiers in Iraq. Pathetic. This man was in a secluded, glassed in area and was no threat to the public. Force may have been warranted if he was amongst a crowd or even remotely near someone else but he wasn’t.

What was he armed with in this secure border crossing? A keyboard? That warrants the use of lethal force? The police look like they feel real threatened the way they approached him and got real close to this “dangerous” man. Would they had shot him had they not had a taser? What was wrong with tackling the man who had his hands up to signal he wont harm them? Or if they felt so threatened why not mace him and tackle him to the ground. Nope they taser him, jump on him which could have been what killed him, as your lungs go into panic and need a moment after being tasered to recover otherwise they can fail. Then to top it all off once all four of them are on him they whip out a baton and give him a couple good jabs.

Isn’t it ironic that the man needed help and the first sign of help was the help that killed this man. Every single thing Canada stands for is simply forgotten.

So to top it all off, the mother is called to let her know that the found his son and he has been murdered.

Can you imagine if this happened to a Canadian or forbid an American citizen in a foreign country. The consequences would be devastating for that country.

Police are not suppose to act in the heat of things, and should know better then to act this way in an airport where individuals are highly stressed and placed in less then ideal conditions. Stress is a funny thing and this could happen to anyone. Would’nt it be nice to know that if you were in the same position and acted uncontrollably because of a mental brake down you wouldn’t be in a position to fear for your life?

Its unfortunate to because these officers are now going to have to prove in a court that they're actions were warranted. Maybe if there was not video but it's very unlikely they well be able to prove it was warranted and they well have to answer to they're actions with what well more then likely be murder charges.

You can also go by the numbers all you want but since this another man in Canada has just died and three more in the USA.

In the end, would it have hurt anyone to try and calm the guy down and let him know they are there to help and offer him a bottle of water? I'm sure the police who responded to this are wishing they did now give then grave consequences that could follow their actions.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

You speak as if you were there. How can you say he was mentally unstable? He was frustrated, dehydrated and wanted to get the hell out of YVR. What would you do after 10 hours in a security room in a foriegn country with no help from any staff whatsoever? Oh don't forget you cant speak a word of the language! The cops made the WRONG decision. Watch the video. Before they can even see the guy they already had made the call to use tasers. The police protocal is to use soft physical force, then hard physical force then lethal force, if I am correct. Now tell me, which was used in the Vancouver case? None, at least not until after the taser was deployed which isn't the correct way in which the officers in question were to act. I question how a mentally and physically drained middle aged man can outpower 4 trained police officers in "peak" performance. They lacked the ability to properly diagnose the situation and did not escalate through the correct steps to ensure that no one was (oh dare I say it) murdered. I will agree he may have been slightly agitated, but wouldn't we all?

Again, hind-sight = 20/20. They see a guy who's obviously unstable (tossing chairs and tables). He's got something metal in his hands. He's not putting his hands up, instead he's looking defensive and threatening. To them, the safest, quickest way out of this situation is to taser him down, restrain him, then figure out what's wrong - NOT in the middle of customs with 300 passengers about to enter. Remember he's already committed crime, vandalism, destruction of property, assault, and whatever else wasn't on the tape. You can tell in seconds when someone is ready to fight - their pupils dialate, voice pitch changes, shallow breathing. If you know what to look for you can strike first and still be covered under self-defence. We couldn't see his face or the small details of what he was doing.

But what I did see was certainly enough to justify taking him down. And as I've said over and over, for most people the taser is way safer than choked, punched, hit in the head, etc. People can DIE from a single punch to the head as well. People can DIE from carotid artery control. Or jaw control. Or pressure points (which don't work on many people).

His situation was unfortunate. The airport definately has questions to answer which is why the Border Authority has an inquiry directed at them to answer why the guy waited 10 hours. But sorry, trying to disect the causes of someone going nuts is not the job of the police, especially at that moment in time.

Forget the conditions, the 10 hour wait, etc - the cops had no way of knowing that at the time. You feel sorry for him now, but all they had at the time was a crazy guy causing a disturbance and trying to trash the place.

The press reports tasers because it's a hot news item.

For perspective:

In North America: tasers: 17 deaths ever, 0 proven conclusively to be caused by the taser.

Bathtubs: 341 americans drown in their bathtubs in the year 2000 alone.
Beds: 327 americans died by either strangling or suffocating themselves in bed, in 2000.
And on and on and on.

Just because CNN says it's a crisis doesn't make it so.

[calgarydub]

Re: Tasers...

You earlier made the huge assumption that police officers are well trained in grappling and unarmed combat. They get maybe a weekend course a year after they're done basic. Some do it privately on their own, others don't.

They're not paid to be ninja fighters. They are paid to know and enforce laws, and mediate disputes. Not be boxers. You pull a knife, they pull a gun. They are not supposed to try fancy disarm tricks or go toe to toe.

A taser doesn't work on pain, it causes paralysis for those 5 seconds. That's why it works on anyone, no matter how tough or drugged they are. It also works at a distance which is safer for everyone involved.

Search hard enough I'm sure there's been a few fatalities caused by pillows, straws and toilets.

No, I did not make any assumtions. I am suggesting that they go through MORE hand to hand combat as a subsitute for excessive taser use. I will agree that tasers could be used in times when the only alternative would have bullets flying. Police officers only have a weekend course? Hell no wonder why they resort to tasers as a first resort. You mention straws pillows and toilets? Somehow, strangely, I'm not seeing death by any of those in the news, at least, not this frequent anyways.
All I meant to say before is that a couple hourse a week for less than a month, if that, could have the basics of correct grappling moves. Don't call B/S, I've done it. I guess there are always two sides to an arguement, which is how problems are solved. Just let me finish with this one final thought. What would you rather have the cops use on you, a potential deadly weapon, or a minimal injury take down?

I enjoyed this discussion, you have proven many good points and I agree with some of them, but not all. I do not mean to direct any aggression towards you, just to the development of critical thinking for a better debate. No hard feelings on my part.

[calgarydub]

Re: Tasers...

Yah, a hungry thirsty guy brandishing a table, smashing computers and thowing crap into glass windows threateing everyone else in the room - in an international airport.

You have compassion because you know he died. If you were standing in that room, waiting to get out you would have probably been saying "Holy crap just take this guy away in a straight jacket". Exactly the same reason why the camera guy wasn't saying "Oh my god look at the vicious cops" - at the time it looked like the right call.

And still the taser gets blamed when it was more likely the dogpile afterwards because he was STILL resisting like the hulk.

But that's ok - the next time a mentaly unstable guy starts swinging a pipe or other weapon around in a public place, the anti-taser people will sleep easy knowing he's not being tortured as the bullets shred him to pieces.

Should also be a class action lawsuit by all police officers, since they were obviously forced to be tortured by the government in order to get their taser certification.

You speak as if you were there. How can you say he was mentally unstable? He was frustrated, dehydrated and wanted to get the hell out of YVR. What would you do after 10 hours in a security room in a foriegn country with no help from any staff whatsoever? Oh don't forget you cant speak a word of the language! The cops made the WRONG decision. Watch the video. Before they can even see the guy they already had made the call to use tasers. The police protocal is to use soft physical force, then hard physical force then lethal force, if I am correct. Now tell me, which was used in the Vancouver case? None, at least not until after the taser was deployed which isn't the correct way in which the officers in question were to act. I question how a mentally and physically drained middle aged man can outpower 4 trained police officers in "peak" performance. They lacked the ability to properly diagnose the situation and did not escalate through the correct steps to ensure that no one was (oh dare I say it) murdered. I will agree he may have been slightly agitated, but wouldn't we all?