Tasers...

[Coker Rat]

Re: Tasers...

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

I have done some thinking about the Vancouver situation. I have come to believe it was more of how the police handled the situation than the taser itself. THEY were the ones that decided to shock him twice. THEY were the ones who jumped on him and smuthered him. THEY were the ones beating him with a baton. I just can't wait to hear what the post-mordem autopsy report shows.


While I don't know how many deaths have been caused by tasers, the fact is that it is becomming a more and more frequent event. This can't be happening so often if it is going to be a tactic used by police, plain and simple.

How can slamming a computer keyboard into the floor be punishable by death? Doesn't make sense to me. I don't want to catch any of you moving things around or sweating or I might just kill you too??

I doubt the taser killed him but the actions followed by the officer. If you are going to use a taser you follow procedure and would appear that it was not followed. Had they gone through all the steps and then tasered him and then let his system go out of shock this may have ended much better.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

Sorry - have to post this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMAEVgRWq6s

The kid was not following instructions, turned his back and put his hands in his pockets. You do NOT turn your back and start fumbling in your pockets when getting a ticket, especially if the cop is alone and feeling jittery. But then again, zapping him because he didn't obey a command makes me think it was a bit of a power trip.

But overall I'm on the cops side. Again, assuming no taser, pull a gun? Kid does something stupid ends up dead instead of just shocked.

Thats what you get for arguing with a cop. Of course you don't act like that. However comparing american situations, to Canadian ones is not just. They have more people driving around with guns who are more then happy to fire at the police.

[Stonewall]

Re: Tasers...

I just watched the video on youtube and it made me sick. It is like watching a snuff film. His death was only partially due to the taser and had more to due with the stupidity of the actions of those officers. i hope they are held accountable for their actions as any person how is not in law enforcement would have already had the book thrown at them.

[calgarydub]

Re: Tasers...

I have done some thinking about the Vancouver situation. I have come to believe it was more of how the police handled the situation than the taser itself. THEY were the ones that decided to shock him twice. THEY were the ones who jumped on him and smuthered him. THEY were the ones beating him with a baton. I just can't wait to hear what the post-mordem autopsy report shows.


While I don't know how many deaths have been caused by tasers, the fact is that it is becomming a more and more frequent event. This can't be happening so often if it is going to be a tactic used by police, plain and simple.

How can slamming a computer keyboard into the floor be punishable by death? Doesn't make sense to me. I don't want to catch any of you moving things around or sweating or I might just kill you too??

[GoNzO]

Re: Tasers...

My 2 cents....

I like tasers. Never been shot by one but have had many patients brought in by law enforment who have. I have also been present in the ER when they are used to restrain a patient who is out of control. Good way of ending things fast. I have NEVER seen a poor result of using them first hand. I think one thing needs to be remembered. People need to start taking responsibility for what they do. I dont know how many times a patient wants to take on the world and threatens harm...but once they are tased they cant figure out why they got tased. Now really there is only one other way to control people who want to fight.....gang tackle. Now I have seen first hand what this does. Broken arms, legs, internal injuries, facial injuries, etc. Or maybe a stick should be used and they should hit you with that!. Now I have watched the video in Vancouver. I think it was warrented. You come to a foreign country and act like an idiot all aggressive and we are to pat you on the back and say its okay. Now I dont like that he died. Feel bad for the family. I dont care if you are frustrated and have stood around for your luggage which never comes. BE PREPARED!. Come in hand with a translation book, etc. I dont travel to Russia or any other country without a translation book and basic language skills. He is at fault. Act like a moron be treated like a moron. He was a risk. To himself and others. Now if there is a threatening person where I am I want law enforcement to do the job tey have to to end it QUICK, so others and myself are not in danger.
Lets note tasers have been used tens of thousands of times with good results. Law enforcement should have to ask you if you have health problems before they use it. THey dont ask you if a bullet will kill before they shoot you!. Over all it has good results that end things safe. Now using fists, batons, rubber bullets, gang tackles, all COULD result in injury or death. All it takes is one lucky punch and your dead. Or a head hitting the floor(etc) and your dead.
Now I am not for unreasonable use of force. I am not for people who think that if they have a gun or large flash light that makes them macho. I dont care for the excuses that mentally ill deserve different treatment. If you are a threat you are a threat, NO matter what your mental condition is. In fact if you are mentally unstable you are a larger risk. So end it quick.
I personally think that a little pain is a good thing. Teach you for next time that if you get out of control the result is lots of pain. Its a deterant. In psych they call it "conditioning". LOL.
I feel if I act like a fool, being aggressive in ANY other country in this world that I would be dealt with ASAP. I think it would be aggressive and I would be lucky if I wasnt shot.
WHEN ARE PEOPLE GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY AND DO?

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Sorry - have to post this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMAEVgRWq6s

The kid was not following instructions, turned his back and put his hands in his pockets. You do NOT turn your back and start fumbling in your pockets when getting a ticket, especially if the cop is alone and feeling jittery. But then again, zapping him because he didn't obey a command makes me think it was a bit of a power trip.

But overall I'm on the cops side. Again, assuming no taser, pull a gun? Kid does something stupid ends up dead instead of just shocked.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

Of course one person isn't going to completely convert the other and have happy times. But many contrary opinions at least make me consider my own, and perhaps mine do the same. That's how you try and be useful member of society - talking about environment, politics, crime, whatever. Be informed.

There is no black and white, it's all shades of gray.

Oh and back on topic - with regards to him being considered "nuts" I haven't really seen anyone that disagrees with that assertion. Some EMTs have speculated that he might have been having a diabetic attack (10 hours no food/water, overweight) which has symtoms of appearing drunk/crazy. Others say he appeared delusional.

But he was definately engaging in destruction of property and threatening people; not acceptable behavior, even if you are from Europe.

For instance, I agree.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

This is one of my problems with your arguments - a taser and pepper spray are in the same class. If you told a cop that he had to be tasered or pepper sprayed, most would probably take the taser. A taser is 50K volts. A stun guns sold in the US go up to 750,000 volts. And they're not lethal (except the odd case, but if you pepper sprayed someone who was deathly allergic to pepper you could have the same objection).

Pepper spray is better for multiple people, but it lasts a lot longer and it also runs a risk of hitting other officers. It's also easier to miss completely. Plus there's even the oddballs that it doesn't affect at all. One aquaintance officer said he'd had it a few times and it barely bothered him. But he also had a phobia of electricity and wouldn't get certified on the taser so go figure.

Also the cloud doesn't just vanish indoors - using it in a room about to be flooded with 300 people would have been dumb.

Watch Jackass where Knoxville gets shot in the abs with the beanbag gun and imagine what would have happened if he'd been hit in the throat. Rubber bullets, the beanbag shotgun - they all have a slight risk of injury or death. EVERYTHING has slight risk of injury or death. You want 100% absolute guarantees of safety, there are none. You can help your odds by not throwing chairs in an airport, not suddenly turning away from cops trying to talk to you, and not resisting them when they try and put the cuffs on.

Pepper spray does not run the same risks. I would guess it is used more often i.e. riots etc. Sure people could have an allergic reaction and die, have six died in the last 5 weeks from this form of control?

They decided to use a Taser, and it appears it was not used correctly. It has been stated that it can be deadly to use a taser and then instantly jump on the taser'd person.

They made a poor judgement, the police said they didn't use pepper spray because people were around, however this would have been an ideal time to use pepper spray given the fact they were secluded and the people that were near were on the other side of a glass wall.

Anyhow, i'll continue this discussion when the reports come out.

Also, to be clear, I do not disagree that police should equipped with tasers as it provides a step before the gun and I'm sure has protected police in the past and maybe even saved lives given they didn't have to use a gun however, had a taser not been available I doubt they would have pulled a gun...

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

Of course one person isn't going to completely convert the other and have happy times. But many contrary opinions at least make me consider my own, and perhaps mine do the same. That's how you try and be useful member of society - talking about environment, politics, crime, whatever. Be informed.

There is no black and white, it's all shades of gray.

Oh and back on topic - with regards to him being considered "nuts" I haven't really seen anyone that disagrees with that assertion. Some EMTs have speculated that he might have been having a diabetic attack (10 hours no food/water, overweight) which has symtoms of appearing drunk/crazy. Others say he appeared delusional.

But he was definately engaging in destruction of property and threatening people; not acceptable behavior, even if you are from Europe.

[Tuna]

Re: Tasers...

LOOOUUUUUDDD NOOOIIIISSSEEEESSSS

This thread is going to go on until infinity because neither one of you can stand not having the last word.

Someone shoot it already.

How do you guys feel about peanut butter and Jam sandwiches?? Some feel they are over rated, I on the other hand do not.

[Khyron]

Re: Tasers...

This is one of my problems with your arguments - a taser and pepper spray are in the same class. If you told a cop that he had to be tasered or pepper sprayed, most would probably take the taser. A taser is 50K volts. A stun guns sold in the US go up to 750,000 volts. And they're not lethal (except the odd case, but if you pepper sprayed someone who was deathly allergic to pepper you could have the same objection).

Pepper spray is better for multiple people, but it lasts a lot longer and it also runs a risk of hitting other officers. It's also easier to miss completely. Plus there's even the oddballs that it doesn't affect at all. One aquaintance officer said he'd had it a few times and it barely bothered him. But he also had a phobia of electricity and wouldn't get certified on the taser so go figure.

Also the cloud doesn't just vanish indoors - using it in a room about to be flooded with 300 people would have been dumb.

Watch Jackass where Knoxville gets shot in the abs with the beanbag gun and imagine what would have happened if he'd been hit in the throat. Rubber bullets, the beanbag shotgun - they all have a slight risk of injury or death. EVERYTHING has slight risk of injury or death. You want 100% absolute guarantees of safety, there are none. You can help your odds by not throwing chairs in an airport, not suddenly turning away from cops trying to talk to you, and not resisting them when they try and put the cuffs on.

[nordex]

Re: Tasers...

The way the officers handled it was pathetic. They could have easily pepper sprayed him and subdued him. Chances are he would have dropped the stapler to rub his eyes. They got caught up in a situation and acted in a shameful manner.

Would you be condoning this had they instead shot him, the taser is the second last resort next to the gun. If no one had a taser would they had shot him. I doubt it.

[calgarydub]

Re: Tasers...

And yours show why criminals often enjoy more rights than victims.

Your entire description of his mother, his sad plight, his wait for 10 hours means NOTHING in this situation with regards to the police. The airport and border authority shoulder the blame on that one. You found out about it after the fact and are now incapable of viewing it impartially. It's a video of a crazy guy in an airport throwing crap and acting aggressive. Even assuming they didn't shoot him, and did bring up a Polish translator, do you think they'd have just let him go after trashing the place? He was engaged in criminal behavior, sick or not! 10 hours, no english, no water - how the hell does that relate to the cops?

If a guy attacks another and starts beating the crap out of another, and the cops drag him off - only you find out later that the guy he was beating up was a child molester - it doesn't change the act itself! You might have compassion now knowing the circumstances but the behaviour remains the same. It's assault.

If I was in a foreign country and didn't speak the language I'd either have several key phrases on flash cards, or at least the presence of mind not to start hurling furnature at glass windows in order to get attention. If I did do this, I would expect to be taken down.

People like you need to be caught in a dark alley with very bad people in order to appreciate what the police actually do deal with. Or better yet, go apply and show us how it's really done. At least go on a ride along - you might get some perspective.

I'm fine with the Taser policies and procedures being reviewed and possibly changed - but calling for the ban of the "lethal" weapon doesn't solve anything and I'm really sick of hearing it. It's an oversimplification of the problem.

EDIT: And you're still jumping the gun by declaring YOU know the cause of death, yet the B.C.'s Coroner Service is still unable to confirm a cause of death.

You keep calling him crazy;Do you have proof he was mentally unstable? He's frustrated and lost is temper. I don't know if you have any idea what europe is like, but I have been there several times (at least 5) for extended periods of time, and they deal with things different over there. The people are different, they act out in ways I guess you would define as "crazy". He shouldn't have started throwing stuff around but I think we all know what it feels like when we completely snap. Don't tell me you're Mr.Mellow, everyone has lost it one time or another. I think its too much of a coincidence for so many to die within a short period of time, all weirdly involving the taser. You brought up points of bathtubs and beds killing people, I'm sorry but I don't remember when cops where using those to safely take down a person? The cops tased him twice, as I can recall hearing in the video "Hit him again, hit him again". The polices' lack of understanding and how they *executed* the situation is what makes them at fault for the death of this man, they did not follow proper procedure.

HOWEVER, if they had given him an order, and he did not follow this order, they are eligable to use force. Too bad they did not follow the correct way of elevating through the proper steps. Using a taser should not be an easy button, it should be the LAST resort before using a firearm. I bet you if you could talk to those cops right now, they would change everything they did. Their excuse for not using pepper spray was that there were "too many people around" yet I saw no one in that secluded glassed in security room. I think we should all agree to wait until the autopsy report is released, and the officers have had a chance to speak out about what they believed was the right way of handling things. Tasers are an effective tool, who knows if he died from electrical shock, or physical force. There is no question that they need to be reviewed and revised. I don't know this man personally, but I will say that if I were him, I would have been very scared, angry, tired and reluctant, then to be confronted by Police officers who I would think are coming to help me, and then aim what I believe is a gun. Let's look at the situation as a whole, not what "the police should be concerned with" because they should take everything into account. Ever watch a swat show on tv? They don't just say "okay so theres a guy inside were going to go get him" they take every detail into account so that they get it right. How should dealing with a man who speaks no english, is sweating, looks frustated and has acted out be any different? Well I feel like im going on and on and on. So as a final thought, I think that we could say that Tasers need to be:
1.Reviewed
2.Revised
3.Last resort before using firearm
4.Not abused
5.Proof that tasers don't end human lives.

After those 5 steps have been taken, I will be all for taser use, even if the UN calls it "torture". Let's get it done.